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Post by Frying Squirrel on Apr 27, 2012 14:10:13 GMT -5
I think some people need to be pushed, yes. I have been a boss too often and have seen the chasm between a self starter and somebody who sits around waiting to be told what to do. Is it a product of the DNA of the human, or a product of the psychology, work environment, society the human is living in? A person sitting around waiting to do what they're told, is probably not doing work that they find interesting/enjoyable/exciting. In my experience, they're 'putting in time' so they can get paid and use the money to live. The Venus Project and the RICH economy both argue that if that person was free to do what they 'want', they would behave very differently. I've known many employees that appear 'lazy' on the job, but spend incredible amounts of energy and time off the job on a hobby. If they didn't need the job for the money... they would be doing the hobby full time. Hobbies that can be challenging, exciting, interesting and sometime frustrating. I don't know if that's true or not... but I don't think I've ever met a person that is lazy or not motivated in all aspects of their life. |
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Post by admin on Apr 27, 2012 14:53:16 GMT -5
Either you have a point or greater faith in human kind than I do!
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Post by Frying Squirrel on Apr 27, 2012 16:03:28 GMT -5
Either you have a point or greater faith in human kind than I do! Yeah, that's the big question. We will never know if humans can be better than this society, unless we make a radical change. Of course, if we all really are poo-flinging lazy monkeys by virtue of DNA, any new society based on optimism will crumble as soon as its built. I would love to think that the sheer amount of crazy/lame/loser/lazy/shiftless/brain dead psychology is the result of this insane society we've built. Part of me, however, fears its just the DNA and there's nothing we can do that will fix it. RAW once said though that its better to be an optimist, because you'll try 10 different ideas... one of which may work, as opposed to the pessimist who is gonna just assume that none of the ideas will work.  I guess though, in these two systems, it may not matter if some percentage of the people just choose to sit and watch TV. If the labor is done by machine and the other kinds of work are done by people that truly want to do that kind of work... if some spags choose to do nothing, it doesn't affect the system. In the RICH economy concept, everyone is given a stipend and become part of the Leisure Class. They get the necessary money/resources to live and can choose to do nothing else. However, free education and the necessary resources are available if they want to do something (libraries/workshops/etc) or become something more... and thus would make more money to spend on things beyond the basic needs. The Venus project, as far as I can tell simply holds a strong belief that people will want to do things and that psychology is a product of society. They make the same claim about psychological illness (sociopaths, psychopaths etc)... is it true? Beats the hell out of me |
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Post by StormInateacup on Apr 28, 2012 1:01:55 GMT -5
I have no doubt that societies - all societies apart from maybe some fairly untouched highland tribes some-place no one knows about yet - needs a massive re-structuring. We've lost the ability to think in terms of how we as a society will survive - to really put a lot of effort and cultural focus on the continuity of the communities we live in.
It's become a fight to the top of the pile or languish at the bottom getting piss rained down on you dichotomy. We don't give a rats arse about the survival of the whole any more - just how well the individual thrives within it.
But I've watched that video again and part of one of the others before my laggy reception pissed me off too much to go on - and this guy could become just the scary kind of EnviroNazi, as I had assumed he might before it all began.
The uniformity he seems to think of as so admirable is very much like you would think about making high quality mechanical devices - everything smooth, perfectly formed. I am worried what happens in his world to the downes syndrome kids, those with autism, spina bifida, brain damage, schizophrenia, bi-polar, and lets face it, people who are just downright not all that bright? Is it eugenics again - will these people we scanned for and taken out of the gene pool altogether - like a brave new world where the IQ and genetic health of a foetus is measurable in utero and this time we just dispose of the lower echelons? Where the physically, mentally and psychologically imperfect are discarded?
All this prenatal testing is starting us down this path already. I have a really good friend who married a Kenyan guy and when she got pregnant and the doctors started making noises about tests for spina bifida and downes syndrome they were treated like pariahs because they preferred not to take up the option. He said "In Africa we just get the baby we get.. I do not know why you people need to know the sex and all these other things before hand."
She told the OB-Gym that she would not consider termination for downes syndrome anyway and was offered COUNSELLING too help her see reason
...fuxake!
I don't know what the solutions to our current epidemic opf greed and pollution and hate of the other might be.
But the Venus Project isn't it. Of that I am now certain.
@ Just a sad little side note. I have been getting ready for the May Day events with Occupy Sydney, digging out our banners and posters from previous marches and I found Isis's first ever real protest sign. Made in 2002. The big march, just before the invasion of Iraq. She was 3.
She drew a massive rainbow on a sheet of cardboard and coloured it with crayons. She told me her sign had to have worlds on it because all my signs always had words on them.
So I asked her OK, what do you want the words to say and mummy will write them
She said
"Can you write
"IT"S MY WORLD TOO. PLEASE DON"T BREAK IT."
But we did.
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Post by Frying Squirrel on Apr 28, 2012 6:23:04 GMT -5
I couldn't agree more that the Venus project seems to have some fatal flaws. He says several times that uniformity is not necessary... except all of the buildings/cities/transportation etc etc appear uniform in every design he has. I wouldn't mind seeing more uniformity in cities, especially if it was designed for optimum performance and environmental protection. It would be far better than the current sprawl we see in cities in the states, for example. However, I really don't think the idea is all that realistic or takes into account human nature.
As for people born with genetic issues, he doesn't seem to go much into it. He does make a statement (somewhere in the FAQ I think) that he is very much against Eugenics. His system doesn't require anyone to be 'workers', so people born with downs syndrome, for example, wouldn't be a burden, they would simply be another human with access to the resources they need/want. The larger issue (IMO) is that he seems to dismiss ALL psychological problems as an effect of society, rather than genetic. He does make a statement (either in moe of the videos or the faq) that once people are free to really dig into the sciences without money as an issue (or governments keeping scientific groups apart) that we would quickly solve genetic/health problems. I think he's a bit too naive "optimistic".
Another problem I have with his vision is his idea that somehow all humans/governments will happily join in this 'one world' concept. I can't imagine Iran, North Korea or (perhaps especially) the US giving up their autonomy and joining hands to sing an international Kumbaya. Unless, of course, some worldwide disaster (natural or financial) destroys all the governments to begin with.
He mentions that his vision would not be in opposition to any religion, and that it would, perhaps, make it possible for people to actually live their religious ideals (caring for the poor, helping their fellow man etc). again, I think it 'might' for the less dogmatic/fundamental types, but I can't imagine fundamentalist christians and fundamentalist muslims etc. deciding to all play in the same sandbox as brothers... even though that would seem to be what their religion's ideal is.
Lots of flaws, I think, in his idea... but some interesting concepts as well.
Also, I'm sorry we broke your daughters world. I hope we can glue it back together before we die.
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Post by admin on Apr 28, 2012 11:48:34 GMT -5
Maybe give him 1,000 volunteers and a patch of ground to prove his ideal. Hell maybe he could figure out how to run hi voltage power lines underground so people don't lose power in storms.
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Post by StormInateacup on Apr 28, 2012 12:15:22 GMT -5
I'm also averse to hydroponic food crops. I don't like the notion of eating things which are primarily fed on lab produced hormones. I know there are food quality hormones and display plant quality hormones but I am still very suspicious. The goddess gave us dirt and set things to grow there. I don't see why we can't follow her advice. That may be just a prejudice of mine, I am willing to admit.  My distrust of big pharma and big agriculture is boundless. And I am not sure I want to cure all forms of mental illness and what are termed "psychiatric disorders" Schizophrenia and Bi-Polar disorder are names we have given to certain types of people and the ways in which their minds function. But ghurkas, Hindus, NA's and Aboriginals call such people "Shaman." ya noe? |
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Post by StormInateacup on Apr 28, 2012 12:18:14 GMT -5
Also, I'm sorry we broke your daughters world. I hope we can glue it back together before we die. Ta. I'm busy with the baling wire and sticky tape down this end!  She's a Buddhist now. Has been since she first saw a video of the series Monkey when she was 6. I think that quote up there was an early sign of her spiritual predilections, don't you? |
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Post by Frying Squirrel on Apr 29, 2012 12:31:07 GMT -5
I'm also averse to hydroponic food crops. I don't like the notion of eating things which are primarily fed on lab produced hormones. I know there are food quality hormones and display plant quality hormones but I am still very suspicious. I did some hydroponic growing and used all organic stuff for the chemicals. I mean, when you're growing in dirt, you're using the same chemicals... they're just mixed in with the dirt  The nice thing about hydro is that you can grow much more in a small space, recycle the water and have very good control over exactly which chemicals the plants are feeding off of. She gave us water too No doubt! Sure... but we don't know if that's because they don't understand crazy, or if they understand something we don't, or something else. ;-) |
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Post by admin on Apr 29, 2012 12:44:55 GMT -5
Plants thrive in shit and it's 100% natural.
Think about it.
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Post by StormInateacup on Apr 29, 2012 13:15:41 GMT -5
Plants thrive in shit and it's 100% natural. Think about it. Yeah but they only thrive in well rotted shit. Broken down into compost shit. Mixed with leaf litter and soil and lucerne hay. You shovel raw chook shit on your veggies and you'll burn them to fuck. They'll wither on the vines overnight. I'm old fashioned. I don't own a microwave and I garden in the dirt. You can't cook real food in a microwave and you cant grow real food in hydro because real food takes time to happen - They taste and feel and smell better than the hydro shit.....to me anyway. |
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Post by StormInateacup on Apr 29, 2012 13:22:16 GMT -5
And I am not sure I want to cure all forms of mental illness and what are termed "psychiatric disorders" Schizophrenia and Bi-Polar disorder are names we have given to certain types of people and the ways in which their minds function. But ghurkas, Hindus, NA's and Aboriginals call such people "Shaman." ya noe? Sure... but we don't know if that's because they don't understand crazy, or if they understand something we don't, or something else. ;-) I've lived and studied with traditional Aboriginal people. I am pretty sure they understand a shitload more than we do about many things, the Mother earth prime amongst them. But they sit on the ground to dispense their wisdom and they don't have shoes on. Their accents are uncultured and their words not Oxford Dictionary approved - so we see them as primitive, ignorant, unscientific people who are naive and don't know what we know. Their understanding is not other than ours, it is less than. Well science gave us the atom bomb, napalm, thalidomide and nerve gas. Quite frankly I'm well disillusioned with it - and the cunts who practice it too by and large. |
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Post by Frying Squirrel on Apr 29, 2012 14:11:09 GMT -5
I agree with your view that all societies have valuable things to teach us... regardless of their footwear, accents and vocabulary. We all have different reality tunnels and each reality tunnel sees some things that another reality tunnel misses. By studying other reality tunnels we can learn a lot more about the world around us, because those perceptions will expose us to something we haven't been exposed to. At the very least it will give us an insight into how human brains work, if not interesting insights into how the world works.
That being said, I don't believe that any one reality tunnel is all that much more 'correct'. The scientific method can provide great insights on observable, repeatable phenomena that can be measured in some quasi-objective sense. The social experience of thousands of years of a tribe can provide great insights based on the perceptions of that sort of life in that particular environment.
When it comes to issues like "mental illness", I think there's something in-between the two. I think science can explain 'why' some people have an extremely different type of behavior that the rest of their society. On the other hand, many tribal cultures can provide insight into how these 'different' behaviors can still remain a contributing part of their society. I don't think someone that is bi-polar is necessarily more spiritual, but I do think that people with extreme differences in their mental processes may be able to provide valuable insights, simply because their brain works so differently. In a tribal culture, that may mean that they can act as a spiritual adviser, in a urban culture, it may mean that they're not gonna have a good time. I think accepting either view as the TRUE one is equally problematic. They are social/cultural views that are 'true' for that society/culture. What is objectively true about them, I doubt we will ever really know.
if this dude's Venus society made those issues disappear simply because his society made people happy/satisfied due to there no longer being any scarcity of resources... we could tentatively conclude something about that society/culture. If mental 'issues' were far more prevalent in western cultures than tribal cultures, I think we could tentatively conclude something about those cultures.
"The only thing I believe is that the Universe is far more complex than I will ever understand." - RAW
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Post by StormInateacup on Apr 30, 2012 0:30:54 GMT -5
Oh sure. Depression, suicide, associative disorders, eating disorders, phobias - these are socially constructed illnesses. They happen in societies which perpetrate cruelty, abuse, neglect and sexual abuse. Possibly in a perfect or near perfect society these problems would not be present or would be nipped in the bud early and the appalling fallout from them minimised greatly.
But other so called "psychiatric illnesses" - Schizophrenia and bi-polar disorder prime among them, have organic causes. There are real, measurable differences in the way these people's brains are structured and the chemicals produced within them.
We view the associated visions and voices as frightening and aberrant. The bursts of energy or "mania" as a problem. We medicate them away. Suppress the manifestations and teach those suffering them to fear the onset of these things. We isolate and label those who are subject to them. While many tribal societies see them as prophetic or shamanistic. They honour the people who experience these things. They listen to them and take counsel from them. A tribal artist might paint non stop for 10 days and then sleep for a week. This is admired...it means the gods have inspired him/her to create something amazing. The voices telling of impending doom are taken heed of and enemies looked for. The sufferers are given a role in society which matters not only to them but deeply to the rest of the community.
As a result the "ill" people in the tribal societies seem to get along rather well while so many in western society languish in lifetime drug, alcohol and depressive illness territory.
I have been associated through family ties and friendships with many people who have been labelled in this manner and the social stigma of mental illness in our societies is so often insurmountable. I'd also state that the medications doled out are in some cases doing almost as much harm as good.
And I don't know what a reality tunnel is. I'm not up on many buzz phrases.
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Post by Frying Squirrel on Apr 30, 2012 5:52:12 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_tunnel"a subconscious set of mental "filters" formed from their beliefs and experiences, every individual interprets the same world differently" So a tribal person will experience a different world than a urban person. A shaman will experience a different world than a scientist or a young earth creationist. They each have their own "reality tunnel". Every kind of ignorance in the world all results from not realizing that our perceptions are gambles. We believe what we see and then we believe our interpretation of it, we don't even know we are making an interpretation most of the time. We think this is reality. – Robert Anton Wilson Its a refutation of naive realism (believing that the world we see really is the 'Real World').
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