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Post by Purpleris NiaiseriS on Apr 26, 2012 6:41:36 GMT -5
www.thevenusproject.com/I found out about this approximately a week ago. There are some videos you can watch on the website. It's a project about a science based world. First I thought it was so very amazing, then I got disturbed thinking there is no freedom whatsoever in this idea. Now I'm just confused. I'd like to hear different opinions from you guys.
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Post by admin on Apr 26, 2012 6:44:34 GMT -5
I will look deeper into this, but a surface scan indicates a perceived Utopia, which if so, is doomed before the first board is nailed.
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Post by StormInateacup on Apr 26, 2012 6:51:10 GMT -5
Just about to watch their film, but I must say that on first impressions of looking at that site - they're as smooth as catshit and look rather cashed up - it's fancy, innit? All the architectural drawings of what their Utopia will look like. My gut reaction was "Scam Artistes or New Age Rich Hippie EnviroNazis"EnviroNazis can make the Right wing of the GOP look like passionate advocates for greater personal and political freedoms. Just sayin'... Poured a Cabernet-Merlot (from the $5.00 Clean Skin shelf at Macs Liquor) and I'm off to watch now.
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Post by StormInateacup on Apr 26, 2012 9:05:22 GMT -5
I'm as confused as the OP now. I don't think it's a scam in the traditional sense. He seems incredibly sincere and makes some very cogent points about the laws of supply and demand, the money system, exploitation of the weak by the strong and the all encompassing benefits of connecting people to the products of their own labour. That being said, it seems a frighteningly uniform society he is attempting to build there, despite all the talk of how they welcome diversity and individual differences. I'm disturbed by the jettisoning of everything from the past too in terms of our infrastructure. Those clean-lined ergonomically designed buildings which can be extruded in one piece and lifted into place with mega machinery - It all seems to me to have so little soul. The thought of demolishing Castles and abbeys, Châteaux, Mills and and stone bridges that have stood for centuries to make way for that production line architecture wounds my history loving little heart, it really does. Once more too the white man's burden is cultural arrogance. He means well I am sure of it, but to say that there will be no need for looking at black rights or indigenous rights pays no heed to matters of spiritual, religious and cultural tradition which would, it seems to me, find trouble fitting into his vision of the perfect human society. And what of the non conformists among us? The Prepper type personality who wishes to live alone on a mountain and hunt muskrats for dinner - or those who seek no more fulfilment from life than to laze their days away in a sitting room filled with Star Trek memorabilia learning Klingon - how do they fit in with his plans for a totally co-operative, productive society? Ahhhh..... . My head hurts now. I shall have to Google madly and research critiques and look at his life story and shit - I've subscribed btw. But I must say - you've raised the entire intellectual tone of the site with just one post - you'll have us all thinking next. There'll be PM's involved if that happens - and they won't all be complimentary...just sayin'.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2012 9:14:04 GMT -5
That link doesn't work for me. It may be the nannywall, I don't know.
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Post by Purpleris NiaiseriS on Apr 27, 2012 7:48:25 GMT -5
I'm as confused as the OP now. I don't think it's a scam in the traditional sense. He seems incredibly sincere and makes some very cogent points about the laws of supply and demand, the money system, exploitation of the weak by the strong and the all encompassing benefits of connecting people to the products of their own labour. That being said, it seems a frighteningly uniform society he is attempting to build there, despite all the talk of how they welcome diversity and individual differences. I'm disturbed by the jettisoning of everything from the past too in terms of our infrastructure. Those clean-lined ergonomically designed buildings which can be extruded in one piece and lifted into place with mega machinery - It all seems to me to have so little soul. The thought of demolishing Castles and abbeys, Châteaux, Mills and and stone bridges that have stood for centuries to make way for that production line architecture wounds my history loving little heart, it really does. Once more too the white man's burden is cultural arrogance. He means well I am sure of it, but to say that there will be no need for looking at black rights or indigenous rights pays no heed to matters of spiritual, religious and cultural tradition which would, it seems to me, find trouble fitting into his vision of the perfect human society. And what of the non conformists among us? The Prepper type personality who wishes to live alone on a mountain and hunt muskrats for dinner - or those who seek no more fulfilment from life than to laze their days away in a sitting room filled with Star Trek memorabilia learning Klingon - how do they fit in with his plans for a totally co-operative, productive society? Ahhhh..... . My head hurts now. I shall have to Google madly and research critiques and look at his life story and shit - I've subscribed btw. But I must say - you've raised the entire intellectual tone of the site with just one post - you'll have us all thinking next. There'll be PM's involved if that happens - and they won't all be complimentary...just sayin'. These were also the issues that confused me. He did mention that if there are people who want to live outside of the cities, there is going to be options for them, but he believes most people would want to live in the cities to have access to everything they can ever need and want. Also, he says everybody's psychology is going to be so perfect that nobody will have problems living together, because he believes bad psychology is a result of the environment not the dna which sounds.. Weird.. He also said they want to keep some of the historical remains for museum purposes. It's a beautiful concept, but then again, somehow, I'm not comfortable with this. There are also some people who say that this is a part of the whole new world order conspiracy thing. ps: Thanks for the warning btw, I really appreciate it
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Post by Frying Squirrel on Apr 27, 2012 7:59:56 GMT -5
I really liked a lot of the ideas, but I think he's either ignoring or underestimating basic human/money behavior.
I don't doubt that for humans to evolve to a peaceful existence, something extreme would have to change. Maybe not now, or in a century, but perhaps someday. Certainly, if there was a world changing event, like the complete collapse of the monetary system, a radical concept like this could gain traction. Barring that, though, I don't think such a system would really get the 100% buy in that it would require.
It reminded me in some ways of Robert Anton Wilson's "RICH Economy" which pushes for the idea of replacing as much drudgery work with automation and freeing the maximum number of humans to explore creative work. He didn't go as far as the Venus Project does.. didn't get rid of money or require uniformity in housing etc. However, the basic concept of replacing people with systems as much as possible... and then educating those people to live a more creative life seems like a positive concept.
I also have a problem with his idea that all aberrant psychology is a result of the environment. I think a lot of it might be, but 'all' seems like a dogmatic belief based on hopes and dreams.
I also felt he hit a good point with the idea that all resources should be considered the property of all humans. Controlling food, water and other basic needs via money is really a horrible, medieval concept when you think about it. The earth does have enough resources to take care of everyone, but the money system simply doesn't provide a mechanic to ensure that the basics are provided. Money for extras, money for luxuries, sure... but money for basics needed for survival... it is rather disgusting when you think about it in that way.
This guy seems like a True Believer and that generally doesn't bode well. His ideas though, could be extracted into a more realistic worldview. Sometimes we need the crazy people to provide a powerful insight into fixing problems.
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Post by admin on Apr 27, 2012 10:23:24 GMT -5
When something like this comes up I stop and think about the wild variety of people out there.
All fine and good for everyone to have time for 'creative' thinking, but there are people who simply want to work with their hands. I honestly think that different people can have very different brain functions, concerning spatial and thought functions.
I dunno, maybe I'm wrong.
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Post by Frying Squirrel on Apr 27, 2012 11:42:39 GMT -5
When something like this comes up I stop and think about the wild variety of people out there. All fine and good for everyone to have time for 'creative' thinking, but there are people who simply want to work with their hands. I honestly think that different people can have very different brain functions, concerning spatial and thought functions. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong. Working with your hands, sure... there are plenty of ways to do that... what I'm talking about is the drudgery of repetitive factory jobs and things like that. I think creative 'working with your hands' would probably be preferable to most people as opposed to standing on a line for eight hours a day using their hands to add part C to widget R over and over again.
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Post by admin on Apr 27, 2012 11:51:50 GMT -5
When something like this comes up I stop and think about the wild variety of people out there. All fine and good for everyone to have time for 'creative' thinking, but there are people who simply want to work with their hands. I honestly think that different people can have very different brain functions, concerning spatial and thought functions. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong. Working with your hands, sure... there are plenty of ways to do that... what I'm talking about is the drudgery of repetitive factory jobs and things like that. I think creative 'working with your hands' would probably be preferable to most people as opposed to standing on a line for eight hours a day using their hands to add part C to widget R over and over again. Sure, I can agree with that. More along the lines of what I meant is illustrated by the following story. Don was a good man. Do anything he could for you, always at work and on time. He was a janitor and took pride in his work, did a great job. Due to his work ethic he was offered a job as a company locksmith. Once the initial happiness of being promoted wore off he became unhappy. He quit smiling. One day I asked him about it. He wasn't happy being a locksmith. He was incredibly stressed and decided to ask for a transfer back to janitor. His request was granted and once again he became happy. Don't get me wrong, because without janitors/custodians we would be up to our asses in trash and filth, but there just isn't a lot of room for creativity in the job, even as opposed to being a locksmith, where critical thinking is applied to work out problems. Not everyone wants to be creative, some are happiest in a highly structured environment where someone else has to do the thinking.
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Post by Frying Squirrel on Apr 27, 2012 13:21:32 GMT -5
Sure... but the question is, was Don happy as janitor because of his wiring or his programming? If, instead of giving him the option of janitor or locksmith... they said "What do you want to do? We'll send you to training for any kind of work you might want to do" would he still have picked janitor? Or would he have picked something else entirely?
The idea presented in the Venus project is 'if' all of the resources are available without money... what will people do with their time? If we don't need janitors, and Don doesn't 'need' a job, what will he do?
Some may argue that Don would sit on his ass and watch TV. The Venus people argue that Don will find interesting and creative things to do with his time. Many people will study astrophysics, biology and computers... some may be doctors or architects and some may be musicians. Its not presented as "We'll assign you a creative job" but rather "We'll free up your time so you can do what you want with your life.'
My Dad, for example, worked an 8 hour a day job that he disliked so we would have food, a house etc. In his free time, he's busy in his workshop, or painting, or messing with computers etc etc
The Venus project (and the RICH Economy) argue that if people don't HAVE to do the 8 hour a day jobs to survive, they'll find more fulfilling, more interesting, more creative things to do.
If we don't NEED janitors OR locksmiths and Don doesn't NEED a job. What would Don do?
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Post by admin on Apr 27, 2012 13:34:21 GMT -5
Let me think on this some more before I reply.
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Post by admin on Apr 27, 2012 13:42:25 GMT -5
Figured out what about this is making me itch. I have had jobs that I loved, but still some days didn't want any part of. Then vacation time came around and we went a little nuts having fun, decompressing.
In this society what would there be to decompress from? Don't people need a struggle once in a while to reach maximum performance? Don't we need to be challenged to succeed?
I don't see any real motivation in the proposed plan, no growing through the hard times. No need to face the day when you are at the edge of the cliff with the option of flying or turning back.
And honestly, across the board uniformity just scares the hell out of me.
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Post by Frying Squirrel on Apr 27, 2012 13:53:10 GMT -5
Figured out what about this is making me itch. I have had jobs that I loved, but still some days didn't want any part of. Then vacation time came around and we went a little nuts having fun, decompressing. In this society what would there be to decompress from? Don't people need a struggle once in a while to reach maximum performance? Don't we need to be challenged to succeed? I don't see any real motivation in the proposed plan, no growing through the hard times. No need to face the day when you are at the edge of the cliff with the option of flying or turning back. I think there is a difference between challenging work and drudge work. For example, the kind of work that I do (Data Security), can be exciting, frustration, challenging, aggravating, etc etc... but if I didn't have to work at all... I'd probably still do freelance data security consulting. Is having the challenge/frustration inflicted on us from a boss at the company better for us than the challenge/frustration we would create for ourselves? I'm sure Einstein got frustrated and needed to decompress sometimes. I'd bet Bill Gates does as well. Same for Marie Currie, Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniack, Jon Stewart etc etc. Can humans challenge themselves and push themselves, or do they need someone else to do it? Me too, its one of the most distasteful bits of the Venus project, IMO.
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Post by admin on Apr 27, 2012 13:58:01 GMT -5
I think some people need to be pushed, yes. I have been a boss too often and have seen the chasm between a self starter and somebody who sits around waiting to be told what to do.
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