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Post by Tofu DeBeast on May 22, 2012 12:25:49 GMT -5
Do Americans do glottal stops much, or is it only the ones who have lived in Britain, especially London ? You know - missing out the T sound in the middle and end of words. I know I do, and I think most Americans do too. When I say "cat" I don't pronounce the "T". The only thing that makes it not sound like "cah" is that "cah" would taper off while "cat" stops abruptly. Which is interesting, as I studied Japanese briefly in college, and as I understand it their words ending in "a" tend to come to a sharp stop just like how I would pronounce "cat". Dude, do you really need subtitles for Brit sitcoms? WTF??" Well "need" is probably too strong a word, but it is helpful. Between the accent, the unique words, and unfamiliar cultural references, it's easy for me to miss stuff. And sometimes the Brit humor thrives on the subtlety. Most of the TV I watch comes from Netflix Instant Watch, and most of their offerings have an option to turn on subtitles.
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Post by Jenne on May 22, 2012 12:37:11 GMT -5
Keep it coming you guys. (I can't believe I said 'you guys'. See what i mean about cultural imperialism.) I could read any amount of stuff about accents and language. Jenne - I would be very grateful if you could say more about what you mean by 'unspeak'. Googling it has confused me somewhat. Do Americans do glottal stops much, or is it only the ones who have lived in Britain, especially London ? You know - missing out the T sound in the middle and end of words. (Thread derailed in a most fertile way.) UPspeak. (did I make a typo? I'll go fix it if so) It's when you end on an upswing of intonation...as if everything's a question. Like so: So I was going out? To the store? And I saw this ugly dude, staring at me? And I was all, Do you think you could take a picture? it would last longer. Very typical what Hollywood would characterize as "young hipster teen." So it's been proven that men use this as well, predominantly to seem nonagressive. I heard a study on NPR last night that a university student did a small experiment at her part-time job where she had to ask folks their names for their orders, and the majority of upspeak occurred when DADS would bring their KIDS in to order and buy food. Very interesting. We have some glottal stops, but not where an unvoiced velar like an /h/ comes word-initially (like the infamous "In Hartford, Harrisford and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly ever happen" etc.), but rather when there's a velar + unvoiced stop as in "mountain"--that becomes "moun-en" (where - signifies the stop).
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Post by bigwillybear on May 22, 2012 12:42:18 GMT -5
Cah is how pikeys pronounce car. So a typical conversation between two pikeys at a car auction goes.
Pikey 1: frrrrump gaga reepwag grunna faine cah forfoksake
Pikey 2: Fitechaforit grun fuckwit
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Post by Jenne on May 22, 2012 12:43:26 GMT -5
I guess the /n/ in the word-medial "mountain" moves further back and isn't very velar but becomes moreso with an unvoiced frontal stop reducing due to the influence of the unaccented vowel followed by another word-final nasal stop.
So "moun-/t/en" is reduced into "moun-en" so that the word is said more proximal as the tongue does its thing.
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Post by Tofu DeBeast on May 22, 2012 12:46:04 GMT -5
We have some glottal stops, but not where an unvoiced velar like an /h/ comes word-initially (like the infamous "In Hartford, Harrisford and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly ever happen" etc.), but rather when there's a velar + unvoiced stop as in "mountain"--that becomes "moun-en" (where - signifies the stop). Interesting - I just noticed that when I say "mountain" I don't pronounce the "T" or the first "N". So I suppose that would be "mou-en" for me. And despite growing up rather close to Hartford, I do pronounce the initial H's "properly". And I've never met anyone who does that unvoiced velar H .
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Post by Jenne on May 22, 2012 12:50:56 GMT -5
We have some glottal stops, but not where an unvoiced velar like an /h/ comes word-initially (like the infamous "In Hartford, Harrisford and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly ever happen" etc.), but rather when there's a velar + unvoiced stop as in "mountain"--that becomes "moun-en" (where - signifies the stop). Interesting - I just noticed that when I say "mountain" I don't pronounce the "T" or the first "N". So I suppose that would be "mou-en" for me. And despite growing up rather close to Hartford, I do pronounce the initial H's "properly". And I've never met anyone who does that unvoiced velar H . I think it's the Cockney that does the /h/-dropping, "innit"? What used to fascinate me is the fact that, unlike America, the UK HAS a nationalized system for teaching a FORMAL accent. We have formal written discourse in English teaching/instruction, but not a formal SPOKEN discourse. Southern, Brooklyn, Boston teachers do NOT change their accents when teaching English, normally. Though one could argue that with the proliferation of popular media, perhaps we've become accustomed to a more generalized accent and therefore that point is moot. So you have someone from Oxford and someone from Liverpool, and they'll each know and produce upon request "the Queen's English." However, they'll also each have their own discrete "home dialects" as well.
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Post by philipkduck on May 22, 2012 13:19:51 GMT -5
What used to fascinate me is the fact that, unlike America, the UK HAS a nationalized system for teaching a FORMAL accent. We have formal written discourse in English teaching/instruction, but not a formal SPOKEN discourse. Southern, Brooklyn, Boston teachers do NOT change their accents when teaching English, normally. Though one could argue that with the proliferation of popular media, perhaps we've become accustomed to a more generalized accent and therefore that point is moot. So you have someone from Oxford and someone from Liverpool, and they'll each know and produce upon request "the Queen's English." However, they'll also each have their own discrete "home dialects" as well. I don't know if that is still the case. We are all so self-conscious about class nowadays, about how London dominates the country at the expense of the regions, and above all about the speech of ethnic minorities and English as second language immigrants, that we are so embarrassed about The Queens English/Received Pronunciation/BBC English - call it what you will - that there is no formal teaching of 'proper English'. If asked to produce the Queen's English, most people would do a sarcastic parody. In a very right-on, politically correct move, the BBC haas relocated a lot of its operations to Salford in Manchester (hear Noel Gallagher in your head for the local accent). No one would admit that it is now official policy, but the flat northern A sound is being used more and more, from people without any other trace of a northern accent. (This is why sound clips would be so good.) Take the word 'class'. A posh person or a southerner would say clarse, to rhyme with arse, a northerner would say class to rhyme with ass - that is with a plain short A not 'eeyass' as some Americans would say it. All part of the famous BBC leftie liberal bias of course.
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Post by philipkduck on May 22, 2012 13:22:59 GMT -5
[ Well "need" is probably too strong a word, but it is helpful. Between the accent, the unique words, and unfamiliar cultural references, it's easy for me to miss stuff. And sometimes the Brit humor thrives on the subtlety. This from the author of the London Noir cult classic Fish & Chip novels !!!!
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Post by Jenne on May 22, 2012 13:29:28 GMT -5
What used to fascinate me is the fact that, unlike America, the UK HAS a nationalized system for teaching a FORMAL accent. We have formal written discourse in English teaching/instruction, but not a formal SPOKEN discourse. Southern, Brooklyn, Boston teachers do NOT change their accents when teaching English, normally. Though one could argue that with the proliferation of popular media, perhaps we've become accustomed to a more generalized accent and therefore that point is moot. So you have someone from Oxford and someone from Liverpool, and they'll each know and produce upon request "the Queen's English." However, they'll also each have their own discrete "home dialects" as well. I don't know if that is still the case. We are all so self-conscious about class nowadays, about how London dominates the country at the expense of the regions, and above all about the speech of ethnic minorities and English as second language immigrants, that we are so embarrassed about The Queens English/Received Pronunciation/BBC English - call it what you will - that there is no formal teaching of 'proper English'. If asked to produce the Queen's English, most people would do a sarcastic parody. In a very right-on, politically correct move, the BBC haas relocated a lot of its operations to Salford in Manchester (hear Noel Gallagher in your head for the local accent). No one would admit that it is now official policy, but the flat northern A sound is being used more and more, from people without any other trace of a northern accent. (This is why sound clips would be so good.) Take the word 'class'. A posh person or a southerner would say clarse, to rhyme with arse, a northerner would say class to rhyme with ass - that is with a plain short A not 'eeyass' as some Americans would say it. All part of the famous BBC leftie liberal bias of course. Welp, that's actually good to hear. The thing about "official" accents, and what I mean by official is LEGISLATED is that it really does marginalize those who truly don't GET the overt prestige of the official accent and therefore have no real reason to use it. What in the 90's we called "Black English Vernacular" or "BEV" is now just "street" language, and rap music has spread it far and wide, outside the confines of Chicago, Queens, Harlem, Oakland and the like. The "youth" dialect as they were starting to call it in the early 2000's became so prolific as to carry its own era of power. And to this day, it's emulated with certain tenants in mind: street cred, money on my mind/mind on my money, etc., gangsta, etc.--basically a youth movement about inner city struggles and how to rise up out of that--legally or not.
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Post by Jenne on May 22, 2012 13:33:35 GMT -5
Speech and how it is used is a politicized animal. Hence the need for politicians to "spin" it. The spoken word is a tricksy thing, and it's a fascinating phenomenon to study.
I got into embodiment in discourse at UCLA, and that sorta made me wet. We videotaped folks and analyzed their language and interaction with each other, down to pauses and movements of hands, heads, etc. Bodily inclination was actually something that held me in thrall for quite a while.
I did my own MA thesis on Afghan doctors here in Southern California. Mind you, this was a couple of years before 9/11, so once my little-known thesis became research fodder on September 12th, that's how my husband ended up as a featured story in the LA times and how we ended up being flown out to Oprah's show a month later.
I sort of wish I'd never given up the pursuit of linguistics, but at this point, if I went back to school, it'd be to do education research.
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Post by BadBeast on May 22, 2012 13:41:22 GMT -5
The "Cockney Sparra" accent from the mid 80's is largely gone. In the last 15-20 years, it's developed a distinct West Indian twang to it.
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Post by StormInateacup on May 22, 2012 13:47:23 GMT -5
We have some glottal stops, but not where an unvoiced velar like an /h/ comes word-initially (like the infamous "In Hartford, Harrisford and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly ever happen" etc.), but rather when there's a velar + unvoiced stop as in "mountain"--that becomes "moun-en" (where - signifies the stop). Interesting - I just noticed that when I say "mountain" I don't pronounce the "T" or the first "N". So I suppose that would be "mou-en" for me. And despite growing up rather close to Hartford, I do pronounce the initial H's "properly". And I've never met anyone who does that unvoiced velar H . If you wish to discuss mountin Jenne you really ought to be in the "inducing labour" thread. just sayin'.
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Post by StormInateacup on May 22, 2012 14:00:12 GMT -5
The "Cockney Sparra" accent from the mid 80's is largely gone. In the last 15-20 years, it's developed a distinct West Indian twang to it. That's lovely though. I really like the way that sounds. Shows how alive to cultural shifts the language still is too. My best friend at school had Dutch parents and when she was 14 they went back to The Netherlands to live. She wanted to be a teacher and she was fluent in Dutch, but had to go through literally years of elocution lessons so that her accent was perfect - they would not allow her to begin teachers college without passing a thorough aural examination to make sure all her cadences and stresses were pitch perfect. I believe they still have the same rules. It's how a small culture seeks to protect its language under pressure from immigration I guess.
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Post by philipkduck on May 22, 2012 14:03:36 GMT -5
The "Cockney Sparra" accent from the mid 80's is largely gone. In the last 15-20 years, it's developed a distinct West Indian twang to it. The Cockney accent has moved out to the M25 periphery, along with the Cockneys. Inner London is now no spik Inglish territory no problem innit my fren. I left London in 2005, and the first question I would be asking myself when about to talk to a stranger was : will this person speak English ? The answer was usually no. The East End - gor blimey stroof guv you're'avin a larf wiv me ain't yer sunshine - Dear Old London Tahn - is now mainly efnic minorities. Also going back to 2005. Even then da white kids were coming home from school talking laik Ali G innit. I don't know if that is still the case. (From your other posting : we don't count Swindon ... fair enough, I can understand that.)
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Post by Tofu DeBeast on May 22, 2012 14:05:04 GMT -5
[ Well "need" is probably too strong a word, but it is helpful. Between the accent, the unique words, and unfamiliar cultural references, it's easy for me to miss stuff. And sometimes the Brit humor thrives on the subtlety. This from the author of the London Noir cult classic Fish & Chip novels !!!! That's Bangers & Mash to you. If I ever did write them I would need some serious proofreading help from a true Brit, all of which would probably terminate in the advice: "best to just burn it and focus on your day job, yeh fecker". I've never been to GB. I couldn't even tell you what bangers & mash really are. Actually I prefer to write Sci Fi, but I've never been to Mars either so I figure it's all good.
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